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If you think everything in the Netherlands is more civilised than in any other country you are likely wrong. I had many experiences in many different fields where I encountered incompetence and ripoff artists. I will tell you about 2 such experiences on this page, and how these people tried to manipulate me:
About 2 years ago I got a new electric power distribution box installed in my house as part of the complete renovation I did. I wanted to change the electric wiring too, and so while he was there I talked about the options. The electrician suggested he could do a few things or everything (only the essentials of installing wiring upstairs (nothing was left there as it was all rebuilt), or replace all wiring including proper earth leads everywhere, put outlets lower if desired, install new outlets and switches). Note that at this point all ceilings were open (as I was going to replace the ceilings) and all tubing and wiring was completely accessible. While talking he said multiple times that he was thinking along with me. [ ;-) ] I asked for a quote for the minimal and for the full job of doing new wiring/outlets downstairs. He sent 2 quotes which were actually the same... Why was this? Possibly a mistake but I thought a bit about it my guess was that he didn't want the 'small' job and so just sent a quote for the work for the big job with complete refit of the downstairs wiring, twice. That quote was more than 4000 euro for what he thought would be 2 weeks or so of work. This was nonsense, I wasn't going to spend that much money. Note that in electric wiring everything is fairly standardised, as with plumbing. Sometimes you come across some old stuff with e.g. what is these days non-standard size of tubing, and the best thing is then to replace that.
For the work upstairs I needed just 1.5 days (total, including figuring out what I needed, and getting more supplies). For the work downstairs I needed more time due to needing to cut into the stone walls for new tubing. I hadn't done anything with cutting stones before. For this I got a diamond blade for my angle grinder, which is not optimal but works. There are dual grinders that cut a groove and which have proper dust extraction but I used a lot of ventilation (everything open) in summer, and of course eye protection and a proper beathing mask to filter out any dust which was enough as everything in the house was under (re)construction anyway. This took some time due to finding out what I would need to get, how to do it (chiselling works well for the boxes for electrical outlets for example), where the tubes must be installed in the walls (at which position from windows etc.) according to the 'rules', etc. I estimate that he could have easily done it all (upstairs + downstairs combined) within a working week (so 5 days at most).
Note further that for this type of work you hardly need special tools. The groove cutter would have been easier, and an earth checker would have been useful, but there is very little in knowledge, tools and storage required. So he wouldn't be able to justify his quote with such costs.
Manipulation technique: He mentioned several times that he was 'thinking along with me' but in reality he was thinking along with himself and his bank account. This tactic is similar to what I saw in videos on youtube, by short-change ripoff artists in stores, who talk to you as if you are a friend (which will make people in shops more likely to accept that you are telling the truth). I didn't fell for it one second, it came off to me as insincere.
Then late january 2022, I decided to call a plumber to install 3 new radiators and tubing to a fourth that already had partial tubing installed. Actually I tried this in December but the person I called then started commenting about the radiators that I had installed that they were low quality, blah blah. I don't care what you think about the radiators (just about any will last ages, I'm not interested in making them last 50 years or whatever he thinks is better), I want you to connect them, nothing more, nothing less. So after that call I didn't want to hire him. It was hard to find one who is free in winter, despite the not so wintery winter weather in NL in the winter of 2021-2022, but I got a number of one in the neighbourhood via a broker who could come in ca. 3 weeks.
He already said on the phone he would want to do the job with a helper. I didn't ask why but I knew this was BS just to install some tubing. I 'felt' (i.e. no proper estimate) that a fair price would likely be 350-400 euro (later checking this I come to would come, with 6 hour used to connect everything, to ca. 8000 euro per month before taxes, taking off retirement etc. for self employed person that should leave ca. 4000 euro per month, which is quite a bit above average). I was willing to pay 500 euro just to get it done so I wouldn't have to do it. He came round a few days later and I noticed his smile, it is similar to the half smile that anti-social manipulators have (see also my project on analysing everything, psychology, society, manipulators, etc.) and said it would likely take 1 day (so 8 hours) for which he charged (before he started on his calculator I already feared the worst, i.e. a total bullshit amount): 80 euro per hour + 30 euro per hour for his helper, + VAT, coming to 110*8*1.21 euro = eur 1064,80. This is just labour, no parts. Note that I had most of the parts/tubing already, but I would need a bit more, but that was not included in that estimate. Also note it was an estimate and that he said it could cost less time, or a bit more.
I had told him in the phone conversation that I would want to have the tubes done sooner rather than later due to wanting to sell my house, but I could live with what works for him. At the end of the visit to see what would be needed to do to attach the radiators, he wanted to see the heater of my central heating system. I thought "Why?". Can you guess why he wanted to see that? When he saw the heater he said that the chimney pipe to the outside should have been replaced. When a new heater was installed a new one should have been installed as well he said. He also said the pipes as used were not allowed to be connected to the aluminium end piece [ I don't know the name for this piece ]. he said there are strict rules about liability etc. I cut this off immediately and said "The people who installed the system are then responsible, not I".
At the end of this "illuminating" visit I told him I'd think about it and that I would call him in a few days. I discussed it and joked about it with some relatives. I had already decided not to go along with this kind offer to rip me off, including using a helper for something he could do himself. I looked up what he said about the exhaust (and entry) tubing having to be replaced: This was not true as that requirement was enacted after this new heater was installed. As to the other requirement, I didn't see this listed but I don't care, as the page on the manufacturer's site said what I knew to be the case: The installer is responsible. And as they provided the tubing, this is likely correct.
So a few days later I phoned his business number, to cancel this job as I found someone else who could do it earlier.
I had some experience with soldering some old copper tubing to new copper tubes, and with closing off unused (steel) tubing with clamp connectors etc., but I had no experience with tube bending. I had already borrowed a tool for this from a relative (but as I had done so much work on the house I thought "OK, I'm going to hire someone to finish this, I've had enough!" so I tried that first but then returned to DIY after the nonsense quote that I got), and decided to experiment on the old tubing. This is not optimal due to corrosion etc. and it works better on new tubing, but it went well enough. I started with some small stuff with new pipes which went well in several cases, once it didn't but no issue as if I would need to get more: those heating pipes are cheap... The most time that I needed was for experimenting with bending the pipes including where you would need to put a mark to bend it, estimate required angles, deciding how to cross tubing by bending one to go across the other e.g. for splitting the tubing connecting it to multiple radiators, also such that what I felt would be best in deciding which pipe does what, which is that the hot tube is farthest away from the centre of the room (so closest to the wall, such that you are unlikely to accidentally touch it), and the return tube closest to the centre of the room. The work to bend 2 tubes and connect it with a 3rd straight tube to a radiator-valve (such that you can disconnect the radiator if needed by only emptying that), is I estimate 1 hour for me. The long straight pipes took some more time in mounting but that was mainly because of deciding how to place them and which clamps to use etc. For an expert it should cost very little time, he should know also immediately the optimal way of where/how to route the pipes. I estimate a fair amount of time for an expert is 3x 1 hours + 2 hours for the long pipes. I took more time obviously due to learning pipe bending and figuring out the best way, including what looks best visually, of where to lay the tubes and where to place T-pieces. I did not need a helper! He should not need a helper.
Let us look at his prices: 80 euro per hour means, as he is fully booked, 12800 euro per month. Take way pension payments and other costs (e.g. car), he likely makes at least 6000 euro per month which is is a very high amount, double the average wages for a rather simple job for which you don't need much in tools, storage, even knowledge. As everything is standardised, he needs very little knowledge compared to say car mechanics, in which cases I can see that paying for knowledge (and aptitude in a multitude of situations) acquired over time is logical. Here it is not, just as it is not for electricians. These people also don't need storage or trailers for large stuff (unlike builders) nor large equipment nor a lot of equipment unlike car mechanics. So where is that ridiculous price coming from? Why does he need a 'helper'? To help him get experience I suppose. And I'm supposed to pay for giving him experience! No f-ing way.
Manipulation techniques (2):
Manipulation 1: He has the manipulator's half-smile which already doesn't work on me, it is a disguise by anti-social people so you don't see their real personality, and especially by manipulative people trying to get you to do something, but which I see through immediately and which I see as insincere. I think on many people it works in the sense of giving 'friend' vibes. This doesn't work on me, just as similar 'friend' tactics didn't work with me in case of the electrician.
Manipulation 2: Using the information I gave him that I would sell my house, he tries to convince me that 2 things need to be done and that I would be liable:
Fix 1. The heating system needs a new chimney tube. I looked this up and it was not needed as it was installed before the time of those new rules and really there is no good physical reason, the chimney pipe is fine, and a further argument for such a new chimney pipe that he might use would also not work: the old heater was also a high efficiency (condensing) heater which means a new one was not needed for that reason either.
Fix 2. Install new metal pipes to the aluminium end-piece [ I don't know the name for this piece ].
Though he tries to convince me I would be liable I immediately told him the installers are liable, as it can't be right that I pay for professionals then they can do whatever they want. That turned out to be correct. This is because for heating systems qualified installers are required and logically they are then liable... (which btw. is mentioned by manufacturers on their websites)
This experience is like going to a car repair shop which is trying to sell you unneeded repairs. I will never ever in my life do business with that guy!
Last modified: 2022-2-12