[ email | Criticism/analysis of society | Travelling | Projects | Goncharenko centre: Talks/discussions » Talk/discussion: Goncharenko centre 2025-8-10: Status symbols in Thailand and in Ukraine vs. the Netherlands + a few psychological topics ]
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Translation: auto translation of this page into Ukrainian
Note: Welcome to the tea club! :) All the talks/meetings are not throw away talks, they are not just an 'English club' (English club? The point of the meetings is of course to have tea with cookies!) even though advertised as such by the Goncharenko centre. They contain useful information that you can use in anything in life. I try to get people to use proper analysis. I don't teach analysis (yet), but I do tell briefly in some meetings the methods of analysis and give examples to make you think about things in life, that can make you realise how it works. In essence all meetings are useful even if you are not so much interested in a specific topic... You may only realise this later, make use of this opportunity!
Comments in blue are post meeting additions to clarify or give additional information such as examples.
I will only discuss this topic if there are at least 4 people who read (or listened to the audio book), enough to be able to have a meaningful talk. Some notes at this point:
I will publish my full analysis soon (probably after part 2 of discussing this book).
Today (2025-8-10): 1 person had partly read the book, 1 person listened to the audiobook, so dealing with part 2 and 3 of this book is to come at a later date.
This book is interesting for questioning concepts that grown ups don't question so much...
Not dealt with today, possibly for a later date.
Now to a video by 'Vortecks', a guy originally from the UK but who moved to Thailand. Quite surprising move but due to costs and issues such as waiting lists in the NHS (national health service) and issues that affect all western European countries [ which comes from a form of self-deprecation in societies instead of realising that western Europe created modern societies and appreciating that. ] I liked watching this guy's videos on making ebikes, they are funny and interesting. The videos from Thailand are not as interesting to me.
This is the video that gave some negative responses from portraying life there for people living there in a far too positive manner:
Video by 'Vortecks':
Escaping broken Britain - What has happened to the UK? Thailand Vs UK - the cost.
Jul 16, 2025
An example of a critical comment:
@BBTFFV
3 weeks ago
Minimum wage in Thailand is £10 per day - it's about £10 per hour in the UK. Thailand is a poor country - you are an economic migrant who is going from a rich country to a poor country and that way you can have a reasonable standard of living. It only works because you must have money saved in the UK or a UK pension. If you had to work in Thailand to make money everything would not be cheap.
I agree with this. His statements that nobody in Thailand is poor and everyone is fine, many self- sufficient, is just not reality. Note that for me in Ukraine it is different. I never had rose tinted glasses, I liked a lot but there were things I didn't like and that I knew were real: Poverty (e.g. with older people) [ further it is hard to save up, there is little job security, and more, see my travel pages where I mention this from talks with people for example in Zaporizhya ], stray dogs (cats can better take are of themselves and are fine with living alone, so I feel more sorry for the dogs even though I like cats more). The cost of living is and was NOT a reason to move to Ukraine. [ And by the way, the cost of various things such as food is barely lower and some foods are much more expensive here. Tools are usually more expensive here. ] My reason was feeling at home there, seeing what I like (though I do miss a lot of simple food from NL... :) ).
Someone mentioned another reason which was supposedly worse, to move to another country for similar views on life which she didn't like, but that is not negative, it is fitting in, and whether she likes those reasons or not is not the point. You can see the problems with people not fitting in and not wanting to fit in in all of western Europe where people come to seek a better life but then complain about the society and the people who created that society, to which they moved! If you don't like like it there, leave! I don't come to Ukraine and start to complain about various things either, people and society are a certain way, that is just life. I do not like people littering too much, that is something that should change, it is not cool in any country, and to help a bit I pick up some trash on my bike rides.
More insightful statements you can find with the following video on Thailand's middle class:
Video by 'CNA Insider':
How Did Thailand's Middle Class Get So Deep In Debt? | Asia's Changing Middle Class | Insight
7 March 2025
Interesting comments:
My parents once told me "if you cant afford it dont buy". People now buys so many WANTS, then later on cry that they are poor. Social media is a big influence on this habit
as a foreigner with a Thai family of my partner i see my brother in law showing his new Iphone and restaurant eating habits off on Facebook weekly ...drinking heavily and always seen to be doing well on social media...in reality he lives with his brother and sleeps on the floor because hes in debt to multiple loan sharks... earns less than he owes and is constantly begging for money....but will he slow down his lifestyle? no because that wont look good to his friends or social media ...it saddens me to see how his generation live. i was always taught if you dont have it dont spend it .
I've lived in Phuket for 32+ years. Everyone in my neighborhood owns a new or nearly new car... and I mean a NICE car. Everyone has an expensive phone. None of them can afford what they have. They basically borrow money to show off. They seem to have no actual plan for the future, especially retirement. The mentality is askew. Saving face takes priority over seemingly everything. It's truly unfortunate and I see no way this mentality will change.
In Ukraine I had something like this happen, probably 5 years ago or so, I would need to check. A guy I met in Zaporizhya, originally from the USA/China, and at some point he sent my contact via Viber to a guy from Odessa. I was not sure who he was. Then he started to ask for money. He knew the guy from the USA, and he said he had promised to give to his daughter, an iphone (I think it was an iphone). I probably saved the messages, I will check. In any case I said I would not loan him the money, and that I needed to use my money for house renovations. Why does he make such a promise if he doesn't have the money? He was trying to get something by trying to make me have sympathy for him (a promise to a daughter) but that doesn't work on me, especially because I don't care about any luxury (phone, anything) for myself. My best buys were 2nd hand phones. Of the only phone that I bought new, I later felt that it was too expensive and I should have bought a cheaper one... Even if I had plenty of money to spend on whatever I wanted then I would not give some stranger money hoping it would some day get paid back... I told the guy from the USA what happened and he said "He is crazy isn't he?".
I will check my saved messages (Viber), I should have them, for exact quotes...
In Ukraine I noticed more this phenomenon of people showing off as shown in social media (so people posting what they have, cosmetics, phones, anything, though they are not wealthy at all), whereas in NL this is barely a thing. A few of the attendees stated too that this is an issue in Ukraine.
Some of the attendees studied in Lviv and thus lived there in the season of classes, and liked it. I said that my view changed, I didn't like it at first, architecture didn't stand out to me, the parks were more 'sport' than relaxation because of the hills, but later, after riding a lot with the bicycle there, and reading a sign in one of those parks stating that exercise is healthy for you (aha, so that is how I am supposed to view the parks, as exercise! ;-) ), I got to like it. When you change your mindset, you change whether you like something... I think it is also from getting accustomed to being there, knowing where the shops are, and having a lot of bicycle paths was a good surprise. Another attendee lived in Kiev and that is more to her liking. For me both are very noisy. One of the attendees living in Lviv mentioned too many cars in Kiev, but in Lviv this is also an issue in various areas, which also makes the city noisy in those areas. As to Lviv being small, it isn't actually small, to get to some parts takes a while even by bicycle. The centre of what is interesting, is definitely small. One attendee mentioned she liked Lviv but after visiting some other countries in Europe, that the appeal was gone. That is very interesting, I suppose because of the style of buildings not being special for say Poland, and so it becomes more normal rather than standing out. [ I need to ask to confirm this next meeting. This is then also an example of your mindset changing and then your appreciation changes as it was with Lviv for me too, but the other way around... ]
I suggested watching English TV series [ and use subtitles ], especially older TV series because there are problems in more modern TV series (and films), one is the social engineering and really propaganda for fringe groups, but worse for learning English is that especially in case of TV series and films from the USA, the actors mumble a lot. [ A lot of people have been complaining about this for years, stating that they cannot understand a lot of what is being said... You can go through the reviews on IMDB for example to read more, or search on youtube for commentary on this problem. ].
Someone stated/asked 'sitcoms'? Yes, especially good are sitcoms (situation comedies) because there a lot of expressions are used that you may not haver learned in school but which are in common use. Then someone mentioned "Star Trek Next generation", I said I find that very boring, extremely predictable. The only parts I found interesting were related to the 'cyborg' Data. I find classic Star trek to be much better and more interesting. Deep space nine, she then suggested: I never watched that... I did watch parts of a few seasons of Star Trek Voyager, after talking with a woman from Kharkov whom I met in Zaporizhya (I mentioned her in one of the early meetings, about clothes). She really liked that series so several years ago I watched several episodes of a few seasons and found it all very boring. I will have a look at Star trek: deep space nine. I also suggested "Red dwarf" which is a science fiction situation comedy that I mentioned before and of which I showed a clip about a situation of going to red and blue alert [ in the meeting of 1 June 2025 I showed this clip:Youtube, Red dwarf: Blue alert ], which people didn't appreciate as being funny, at which point I said that they needed a humour upgrade :)
She mentioned watching for fun and not to learn, yes, that is the best way. For that I also suggested to have a look at the TV series "Fringe", which is one of the best (most interesting) Sci-fi series ever.
1. Politics: Why do you always see the same type of people in politics (in NL, in the USA and in the UK it is very clear to me, not so clear in Ukraine but it seems a global phenomenon): They never do what they promise, they are often liars, incompetent.
One attendee said it correctly: It is the system and other people already in the system who attract the same type of people. I talked about this when I and a friend were about at the end of our studies of physics: Why do you always have the same a-holes in politics? He then stated: "If you don't fit in, you don't get in". This is absolutely correct. The position attracts a certain type of people, and if you don't fit in with those who are already in politics, who are almost all such people who are attracted to power, the system will not let you in. [ the only option is that you can try to create a new political party but it will be difficult and in NL the result has been clear over the years that other parties then work against you and you can do very little. ]
An important principle of life is: Birds of a feather flock together. I.e. kind seeks kind, in other words again: type seeks (the same) type.
2. People's reasoning, different thinking of men and women: Related to safety, I talked about women and men thinking differently and I mentioned that men are NOT more logical thinkers than women, which is what a lot of men claim/state to be a fact but which is totally false. Men and women both seek to confirm their views. This comes from not seeking the truth but seeking comfort. [ Psychological comfort means not seeking reality, but seeking confirmation of one's views, as this means evading the feeling of 'cognitive dissonance'. The latter is an unpleasant feeling that you get when you realise your view on something important is wrong. It could be that police come and tell you that a relative has been arrested for murder. You then think: "No that can't be true!". People then try to avoid looking at evidence or they try to invalidate evidence, not with proper arguments but by saying anything (doesn't need to make sense at all, people rarely check their own arguments for making sense) they think might support their case. This is how people mostly reason: They throw out statements that for them are 'arguments' that they think support their case but which in reality don't make sense. ] Almost nobody reasons logically... The only people who reason logically are truth seekers, and there are not many of them. Men only appear to reason more logically than women because of their simple linear thinking..
This phenomenon of avoiding cognitive dissonance, along with 'birds of a feather flock together', is what leads people to group together in "echo chambers", they do not listen to arguments from other groups because "they are the opposition/enemy". They will not examine arguments on the basis of what makes sense, but first and foremost on whether they like it which means arguments that fit in in the group. You can see this clearly everywhere, in forums where something is discussed, and in politics, on just about any topic. [ Example: such as preventing pollution/using renewable energy. The opponents have no good arguments and are simply interested in only 1 thing: To pay as little as possible, which means cheap oil rather than solar and wind power because "it costs too much". In reality such people do not look to the future and have a "after me/us the deluge" mindset, which sacrifices the future for the present. (In English: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apres_moi,_le_deluge. In Dutch: Na mij de zondvloed, see: nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na_ons_de_zondvloed) ]
I mentioned further that contradictions and inconsistencies are pointers to better understand what goes on, both in psychology and in science and mathematics. They are signs that you need to change your understanding to get to the cause, or in science to a proper theory. The example I gave was of 'M' from Kharkov who acted as if she was autistic in some situations (such as not thanking people in shops for doing effort to search for say a bag, then just walking out, so I thanked the sellers instead, further emotion poor responses to me), but normal in other situations and in understanding people such as in teaching in a class at a language school, and with the parents of an acquaintance she said to me after the conversation, about a specific part of the talk: "Did you notice how she looked at him? She didn't want him to tell us that.". Yes, I had noticed that and if she noticed that, then that means that she is definitely not autistic. [ Addition: In other situations she didn't respond to what I said, as if there was no need to respond at all. In one case about distrusting me she just said "I made a mistake". No, that is much worse if you know each other several years, it is not just "a mistake" ] This contradiction got resolved by what she told me about her mother, who for example told her not to hug people when greeting them. I realised then that she had likely always been somewhat emotion poor, but it got far worse from her mother, she became emotionally repressed. And that fits with her behaviour.
[ In general: In analysis (i.e. understanding what really goes on, can be in life or in science): Contradictions, pain, anger are all signs of problems: Pain points to a physical problem and that you need to change something, about how you do sport (how much, movements), anger and regret point to the need to change the way you live or deal with life, contradictions point to a missing level of your understanding of the given topic. ]
What came up again was psychology: Of course it is in your life because it is about understanding and dealing with people, but I wasn't interested in any of it until after dealing with manipulators, especially in and around airport Schiphol. What also influenced me were my earlier experiences with the extremely anti-social and moronic behaviour of people arguing in newsgroups (usenet) about programming, Linux. I dealt here with autists and psychopaths, and the incompetence of psychologists... So why is that? I stated an earlier meeting already that a lot of that comes from the reason why people go study psychology. Often to understand themselves. Researchers come from that pool so often they are unable to properly understand themselves too. One of the attendees then stated after school she wanted to be a psychologist. And why? To help people be more happy. I like that...
This was an interesting suggestion and I stated that to start we need to distinguish between men and women, as they look very differently towards safety. In the evening, well, at any point of the day really, men just walk. My sister once asked me whether I knew what she thinks of when walking the street. I thought just about things she noticed that stood out. But it turned out to be about safety (mainly when it gets dark). I was surprised, it is an example of many that are good to know to realise how to understand that men and women are very different in thinking, not just in this respect.
So, what to do about posting pictures, for example from which can be deduced where you live or where you were? I said that I don't care, partly this is about safety for men who don't worry about safety, but also for me there are 2 other factors: 1) Not caring about what others do, or about what they think of me, and 2) living without worrying all the time. If you post and think about safety of posting pictures, is that living? [ You are being lived through your fears. ]. See also the first meeting about my "list of life".
About safety I mentioned that instructors for sports like Karate, Kung fu, state that the best way to deal with a dangerous situation is to run away! Not to fight... Regarding safety the issue for men is that other men can be experienced in street fights, or have a knife or gun. This does not affect men's views of safety at all. Not until that is shown to be a factor in the situation. So men more or less think "It will be fine".
Further, as an example when something bad happens: In cases like murder the perpetrators are almost always close to the victim: family, friends, acquaintances. Not some random stranger from far away who stalked you. It can happen but it is rare.
Related to safety, the bridge across the river to Kryukiv came up, and one of the attendees said that when you are on the bridge and a train crosses, the whole thing shakes and "it is really cool". For those who didn't attend, guess whether this was a man or woman. It should be obvious :)
I had a walk with one of the attendees and saw a building in the centre which was damaged in the big attack on Kremenchuk about 2 months ago in which the whole sky was lit up, some buildings near the train station were damaged, and outside the city there were apparenttly also impacts, damaged houses. After that a walk to the centre.
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