| The critical pages: index » A group that aims for 'ecological/sustainable living', Kharkov, 2016-2018, showing (again) that idealists are often anti-social |
This page is about a group that was trying to follow their ideals, trying to create a commune where they were growing in a sustainable, ecological way. Close to where they bought land they organised some activities as a catalyst to try to get more life back into the nearby village. They encountered issues caused by anti-social people who vandalised their equipment which were apparently 'helped' by people from bigger agricultural businesses near there who didn't want them there. I will tell you from the start how it went and show that they are just like almost groups that are about meditation, improving life, which is: destructive in some way.
I give a lot of background information which is about my friend, which is coupled to that group, and to behaviour of other people.
I met the woman who was part of this group in Kharkov in 2016 via Vkontakte (VK, a far better 'social' site than the well know godawful site). We met near the big shopping centre at the edge of the city with a huge Karavan supermarkt. We then walked to a field and had a sort of picnic. I brought a few things, she brought some food that she made including self-made Tarkhun, oh, that was tastier than any store bought Tarkhun! Tarkhun is a Georgian soft drink which in the Soviet union was the counterpart to Coca cola in the west. She just made this drink from memory how it tasted, by mixing the right herbs. Amazing! She could also paint really well, had ideals about how to live, it was very interesting, and I said that, but she was dismissive about my comment. She said "come on" as if I lied to her, I suppose she thought I might have tried to impress her. This should have been my clue to not pursue any further contact, she was distrusting and that is something that I cannot accept... (and that would cause issues multiple times later on in 2018, 2019)
I would go meet her again a few months later, on my 2nd trip to Ukraine that year. She invited me to go to a restaurant, and this is where I met this group, or part of this group. The restaurant was one where the food is not cooked. Much later in 2018 she told me that she had worked there, gave them recipes, but that she was not paid for that. "Why not?" I asked. "They make money off of you, they should pay you!", I said.
She was dismissive of my criticism of them but I will go back to 2016 first:
We tried all sorts of food in that restaurant, it was interesting and apparently it is healthier than cooked food, but my view is that not everything needs to be very healthy, whereas you definitely need variation in food, just for not getting bored with it (I don't understand that for example cats are not bored with getting only a few types of cat food! :) ), and warm food is nice as a variation.
At the back of the restaurant they were starting to make music, If I recall correctly it was a Friday (otherwise Saturday), there were no other customers at that time. My friend then suggested that we join them. She knew them so we went to the back and sat beside them. They made music, talked, laughed. It felt like the atmosphere as you would have in the 1960s. Not that I experienced that, that was before my time, but in some documentaries from that era I've seen situations that give off a similar vibe, about groups that are about meditation, enlightenment, the 'flower power' era.
It made me feel not quite comfortable, because such people are usually not grounded well enough in reality. My friend translated where needed/useful, and I think it was ca. 23:00 when she wanted to leave, I think it was because she said she had to do something in the apartment where she lived (she shared an apartment with another woman). She said I could stay at the restaurant with these people, but I was not there for that group but for her, another clue to forget about her.
In any case I left, we then had contact via VK for a while but it was mostly one sided, except one time where she was trying to find information on getting energy in a natural way from decomposition of materials and she wanted to see if there was something useful in that regard being done in NL.
She invited me to a gathering, later in 2017 I think it was, in or near Kharkov (I would need to look it up in the messages), with meditation and possibly other activities. I wasn't particularly interested in that and when I asked whether she wanted me to come (to talk, whatever), she didn't reply, so her disinterest was obvious. I stopped writing some time in Spring 2017, I think.
I didn't go to that gathering, but I had a look on her VK page now and then and from there the VK pages of people she linked to in her posts, which were members of that group. Their posts had links to videos about some performances and cooking food and other things that they did in that village which made the local TV news. One guy posted about honey that he was selling. One of the guys sold his car for that purpose of buying land and setting up their life there, my friend later told me.
I later saw in VK postings, I think Spring 2018 (I would need to check when it was exactly), that she and that group made a trip to Crimea... That was weird to do in that time, unless there was a specific reason to go there.
She didn't tell me anything about this and I think it was Autumn 2018 that I was thinking about what to do. Renovations of my house were taking ages, I had wanted to be finished much sooner. I contacted my friend again, asked her how everything was going. She said everything was improving, she had positive experiences, but the reality turned out to be very different, but that became clear only in December 2018. At this point she told me of some experiences and showed me a painting she made. It was amazing, I really liked it.
Some time later reality overruled fantasy and she was somewhat distressed by how everything was going, she needed money. She asked me to buy her painting. I decided to go visit her, to see what I could do, we could talk about everything, and I asked her to organise a meeting where I could have a talk with people to discuss life in Ukraine vs. the Netherlands, just as I had done in Zhytomyr in 2017. This talk could be in the school where she taught English (a language school) or perhaps at the university, or somewhere else, possibly organise something via her friends from university.
So mid December I travelled to Kharkov, it was about -12 C, nice, I like it when it is cold and with snow, or when it is hot, I do not like the crappy rainy winters in the Netherlands with almost no snow.
I stayed in a hostel, which was fine. A few days later I met her parents and brother, as it was her mother's birthday a few days after I arrived in Kharkov, to which she invited me. I think I gave her mother something that I took with me from NL, possibly some Droste chocolate, but I don't recall exactly. My friend suggested to tell something of what I wanted to discuss about the different views of western Europe and Ukraine, to her relatives, also as a sort of practice session for this event that was supposed to be organised later. We did that, she translated to Russian, but they were not that interested and before I told everything everyone wandered out of the kitchen. I think it was a few days later that her relatives visited the apartment again and her mother suggested that it might be a good idea to stay in the apartment. I said: "only if she wants it". My friend said that her mother apparently felt that perhaps I was taken advantage of where I stayed. But was that care real? The reason I said "yes" was to spend more time with her, talk about what I could do to help help with issues in her life and to perhaps give input on organising a day with a group similar to what I had done in Zhytomyr in 2017, where I went to a English language club and talk about life in Ukraine vs. the Netherlands. There it was clear I could not make any of these people realise the good points of Ukraine. Especially the leader of that group who had lived in Canada, was negative about Ukraine. I said that I had been travelling in Ukraine, and he said "and you don't like it", but I replied: "I love it!". He was also anti-social. He asked some things about what I had done and then said that "you haven't achieved anything". What an unbelievable anti-social statement! I am sure he felt inferior and this is why he said it. Such people then make denigrating remarks to make themselves feel better. But that was after the talk, so it didn't affect the talk there with the people attending this club.
I had asked my friend before I came to Kharkov, to organise such a meeting with people who may be interested in discussing the differences between NL/western Europe, and Ukraine. But nothing happened. The language school owner or director, possibly she was both, I don't recall, agreed to have such a meeting there, but then didn't cooperate and nothing happened. OK, well, what about the other option that I suggested, contacting the university or have a meeting somewhere else, with people she knew from there? Nothing happened but I had time, so in the mean time we did some other things.
We had some cool adventures in Kharkov:
1. We went to the museum which was very interesting and for which we needed a ridiculous number of tickets, to see every floor...
2. We went to the parents of another acquaintance. I gave them Dutch Droste chocolate (the best!), talked about life in Ukraine vs. the Netherlands. I told a bit about the issues in NL such as outsiders/immigrants, complaining about our customs, statues, names for streets/schools etc., which is absolutely ridiculous. If you don't like it in my country, then F off to wherever you came from! I noticed the way way this couple interacted, generally supportive but my friend said "Did you see how she looked at him? She didn't want him to talk about certain things and she gave him a disapproving look". (this quote is not literal, but from memory). Yes, I had noticed that. On the way back to her apartment, which later turned out to be her parents' apartment, which I didn't know yet, we went partially by bus, which went so slowly from the traffic that we got out, walked and waved goodbye to the other passengers who were stuck in traffic for quite a while :) After that we took a tram. I helped an older woman get her stuff inside and the doors closed. So I had get out the next stop, then walk back a stop :)
3. We went to a supermarket, bought all sorts of food and candies for the children of a local orphanage. Unfortunately none were there at the moment so we left it with an administrator (or something), and hope it arrived at those for whom it was meant. My friend told me something interesting about other shoppers. I usually don't listen, I am too focussed, but she said they said "She is with a foreigner" and "He looks good!". The reason I tell you this I will tell later, namely about how some people perceived my clothes.
4. We went to a bike shop, she really wanted to show me a bit of bicycle infrastructure and shops in Kharkov. I wondered if they had tyres with spikes in stock and yes they had them... That would be useful, contrary to the Netherlands where this would rarely be of use.
5. We went to a place where you could rent bicycles, pay to store your own bicycles until you want to ride again, etc. The owner showed us around, talked about his business, it was very interesting. Here we were for about an hour. My friend wondered if I wasn't cold. It was about -12 C each day, but I was wearing summer trousers, thin flannel or something, and I wasn't cold at all. I have big leg muscles, these keep me warm. If I had been cold I would have put on different trousers. Keep this in mind because later this would come up again.
6. We went to a tea shop that could let us experience various Chinese tea ceremonies. We tried various teas and were told about the owner travelling to China, and about the essence and history of these ceremonies.
I had by then already helped my friend with a few things such as buying hiking shoes, and later I bought a painting that she had shown me in a message. Since I stayed in her (her parents') apartment we had some long evening talks. Finally the truth of that group was coming out.
But that was after this: My friend suggested taking a yoga class with her. We looked for some cheap yoga mat to buy after her work, but we saw only expensive ones. What if I would never want to do it again? The next day she had a mat that she loaned, I think. We went to a place where a guy was giving such lessons that she had been taking for a while. I took the subway, I was supposed to meet her in a specific station. So I asked someone about this stop, he said it was a few stations further, then my brain went into a freeze or something, or I was thinking too much about other things. When this guy whom I had asked about the station, said to me "this is the stop where you need to get out", I said "No it's OK". So I went 1 stop too far. I thought "What the hell was I thinking? Oh, no, now I will be too late. How will I find her? Wifi is also not working on the stations so I can't send a message that I will be too late!". But then I thought "No point worrying, just return and see what happens". So I returned to the correct station 1 stop back, I think 15 minutes late, and a few seconds after I arrived there she was there, also too late :) The class was interesting, my friend translated some bits though I could follow most of it, and afterwards we talked a bit with him about meditation, enlightenment. He said at one point he was close to it. I don't think so, because I later found out he is one of that group. After that my friend asked what I thought about him. I said that I don't know, I would need to think about it. He seemed pleasant enough, but still I felt I couldn't tell her my impression. I later realised why: It was because he seems OK, but in reality isn't, and I realised that subconsciously.
At this point after the yoga lesson where we were walking around in the snow as she wanted to show me something and then to that friend to fix the issue in my leg, that my friend finally started telling me in the snowy cold in Kharkov some more of what really happened with that group, which is that they used her. This guy and another guy (or was it the same guy? I don't recall at the moment) who could perhaps help with an issue I had since running into a subway gate (not sure what he would do exactly, I suppose the things an osteopath does), are part of the group that dumped her. I asked why she still took yoga classes with that guy and why she recommended that other guy for this issue with my leg (which wasn't too bad, but she wanted me to do it). After hearing they were part of this group I absolutely didn't want that guy to treat me. I asked "Why do you still have contact with these people?", she said "They are not bad people, they are trying to improve the world" and that "I show them that I am not affected by them". I disagreed with both. They are bad people, and showing that you are not affected is a waste of time, they are not impressed, they won't change their thinking, they simply don't care.
I think it was after this that we talked for a long time one evening, and she told what really happened with them on the hiking trip and more details about why they dumped her: The hiking trip to Crimea, was a test. They didn't tell her she would need hiking shoes, and she hadn't hiked long distances, so she didn't know about that.
The first time I was in Ukraine I started walking long distances in Sumy and less so Kiev because I met someone there that I got talking to and who showed me around often taking a taxi. This was an actress (Mila Monastyrskaya) who had played for example in the film 'Dushka', which is a bit of a weird film. I had watched that film not long before getting acquainted with her as it was partly about Ukraine and I had been watching and reading a lot about Ukraine before this first trip. I didn't know she was in the film until her friend mentioned it, she was a blonde in that film. When on my own I only walked because I was not fluent in Russian, and didn't know everything on how to go from one part of the city with what kind of transport.
I had some blisters from the long walks from my shoes which were slightly too big, very heavy, and not hiking shoes. For the next trip to Ukraine in 2013, I went to a store for outdoor activities and bought hiking shoes which I still use on all my trips.
I was disgusted about their behaviour. They all knew that having good shoes that are exact fits and preferably meant for hiking, were needed when hiking long distances on a day. They knew it and they didn't tell her and it was clear from what she told me that they did this on purpose to see how she would react to problems. Although she had problems walking these long distances on the shoes that he was using, she didn't let on to them about this... That was good.
She then told me about the restaurant, that the people there were in this group, that she didn't get paid there, they used her recipes, that they bought land and equipment for which one of the guys sold his car, the vandalism of some of their equipment, that people were trying to make them look like idiots, perhaps even witches, something negative. She further told me that this group used her knowledge until they found some other woman who could replace her, who had some of her knowledge on creating food, using herbs etc. The reason for that was that one of the guys was interested in her for more than friendship, she wasn't interested in him, so they dumped her, after using her. Relationship issues are logically an issue in such groups if any in that group are single, but no matter how such things go, you should always treat people properly, especially in a group that tries to do something 'good', otherwise you are hypocritical. And that is what such groups and people from such groups almost always are. They care about ideals, not people. This is a form of anti-social behaviour...
I was even more disgusted with these people after hearing all that. They should have paid her in the restaurant, for her work and for her recipes; In the group they owe her for her help and recipes of e.g. honey, and they tested her in an anti-social manner on that multi-day hike trip to Crimea.
On one of the last nights we went to shop for a few things, I think these were all on the same evening, but it doesn't really matter. The first is an Ushanka, a cap which is very warm in winter. I still use it in NL, it is also great for when it rains.
The second thing is that she wanted me to buy some presents for family in the Netherlands. I said that that is not why I came on this trip and it is not important, but she insisted. I felt then and several other times that she just doesn't listen or doesn't believe things people say and then does something that she thinks should be done instead. We went to some shops where I bought what may be some possibly tasty cookies, cakes and similar, which were later appreciated by my relatives, so they were very tasty but this was just not important to me. Why didn't she realise that? I didn't come for tasty food but 1) to help her, 2) to talk with her about her issues, 3) and to have a talk with discussion about life in Ukraine vs. the Netherlands with people interested in this topic. That was all that mattered to me.
After the shopping for some tasty snacks/food to take back to NL, we went to a Christmas bazaar. I tried a bit of a drink, which turned out to be alcoholic, I think glow-whine or something: No thank you, I just don't like anything with alcohol. She also showed me honey that was for sale there, with various types of herbs added, and said that these were her creations... (but sold by people from that group). I felt even more disgusted about that group.
The stay at the apartment ended because of her mother who didn't like that I was interested in my friend for possibly more than friendship, though she wasn't really interested in that which she had made clear long before that time. Ah yes, suddenly that makes me a bad guy. I was not to her liking for that purpose (my friend had already told me earlier that her family wouldn't accept me, as I wasn't Ukrainian, am from a different culture and other nonsensical reasons, and she was right, well, at least about her mother who is a nasty piece of work). Her mother then wanted payment for staying in the apartment! So I paid, but not what she wanted, only what I would otherwise have paid at the hostel. At this point after all the outbursts from her mother, I told my friend that she should get away from her mother. I made a suggestion to experience a supportive atmosphere from a very different type of people in NL also to get away from the atmosphere and influence of others there, but she distrusted me. Right, then stay in Ukraine... I arranged a flight back to NL from Kharkov, and left Ukraine.
Before I left, I had some disagreements with my friend about clothes. Remember what the people in the supermarket said that "She is with a foreigner" and "He is looking good!", and that I wasn't cold in my summer trousers even when it was -12C in the snow. She then said on one evening walking in the cold that I dressed like a tramp. What the hell? She then said that she didn't think about my clothes but that some of her friends told her this. But she said it to me as if she thought it, which means that she is influenceable. I asked: "What do people think about me when they see me here?" She said: "That you are a foreigner with expensive/quality western clothes". My clothes weren't actually expensive, but this seems contradictory: So why this 'tramp' stuff? She said: "Because you dress inappropriately". Inappropriately? I am not cold so I wear thin trousers, if people don't like it, they can fook off. It was not just that, I asked what these other friends thought about me and she told some negative things. These supposed 'friends' that I met on a day when we went looking for hiking shoes for her who talked negatively about me, were pieces of shit in reality, just like all of her 'friends' in that group about sustainable living. The one friend I met of whom my friend was very critical, I appreciated more. He used to do boxing, and for her I suppose he was a simple man, she looked down on him, but he is one who is not such a judgemental a-hole as the others, and strangely she kept in touch with him. If she didn't actually like him, then why keep in touch with him? He drove us to I think it was the same large shopping centre, for her to look for some present to buy for her mother.
She was stressed out by everything going on in her life, but that doesn't explain her behaviour. I think a far bigger influence was her mother, already from years ago, in making her not express her emotions. I had thought a lot about this aspect after this trip, as she seemed not just somewhat emotion poor, but actually autistic in messages and dealing with people in shops, but on the other hand I had seen her teach and interact with people so I know that she wasn't autistic. It is a bit similar another situation from long ago, where I realised later how it works, with an autistic guy in programming. The interactions I had with that guy were in discussions about programming in a news group about Eiffel. His arguments were so stupid that I thought "this guy is retarded!", but at the same time I thought "But he can't be retarded, as he seems to be good at programming!". Only later did I find out about autists and I deduced from principles how it works, i.e. why autists and anti-social people can't properly reason and thus reason extremely stupidly. In this situation it is similar in the sense that there was an apparent contradiction: She acts like an autist in messages and certain behaviour towards for example people in shops, but she acts normally towards students. From the latter I knew she could not be autistic. The solution was what she told about her mother, namely that she made her repress emotions and especially expressions of feelings towards most other people (that she didn't know well). The result is that she is similar to an autist because of her in-built personality which is somewhat emotion poor, combined with the negative influence of her mother to not express emotions/feelings (no hugging of people for example). This is why she didn't respond to certain criticisms that I gave or why she considered my criticism of her behaviour as something for which a simple statement of the type "I made a mistake" is enough. No it isn't, that is exactly what autists do who had some course in how to deal with people. When they realise the person they talk to or correspond with is getting annoyed, they apologise, which to me feels fake. In her case it felt not fake but empty, not the real explanation, not her real thoughts. Unfortunately, despite that I liked her, this is something that I can't really deal with, which means problems and really the friendship was actually over already the first time we met in 2016.
I was very annoyed at her distrust but we kept in touch and some time after I returned to NL she showed me a picture of a painting she made, which she said took 1 hour. Wait, what? Only 1 hour to create a very intricate painting?
I suggested a cooperation but her distrusting nature came out, again. She wondered, and this question possibly came from the friend with whom she was staying, whether I really liked her art. I could have bought her painting purely to support her, but then I would have said so! I don't tell anything to make anyone like me, I don't play games in life! If I didn't like the painting and/or her art in general, I wouldn't say that I like it! This distrust made me say goodbye.
More later, perhaps. this was not the end, she contacted me a year later, and this was interesting but again distrust about my motives. But this is not about that group but about her which is interesting psychologically, but not really relevant for this group which is what I wanted to show. [ it is about how seasonal workers are often badly treated, she experienced it when she went to work in the UK for a while. ]
The Hare Krisha have been very destructive in the USA but in general everywhere are destructive and they are morons because of educating children separately from the parents which is very bad for children. Supposedly this is to not get attached to anything in life. This is moronic as children need an emotional link to the parents as part of growing up and as part of developing emotions! Emotions are not something useless, they are in fact very important in all aspects of life!
Rajneesh/Bhagwan/Osho was a narcissistic psychopath with destructive followers and in his commune, from the reports of some documentaries ('Ashram in pune'), children were left to their own devices, wandering the area, while the parents were off meditating.
There are many others, I list a few on this page where I analyse an email from a woman from Yalta from 2014-3-22, and it is always the same: The people creating such groups and those partaking are in fact all selfish, trying to get 'enlightenment' and find 'meaning' in their lives while not taking care of their children, while using other people etc. These idealists are often the worst people you can find in a society! This group from Kharkov is also contempt worthy. My friend behaved very badly towards me by the way, partially perhaps because of the influence of her mother. I looked too much to her good points each time which made me waste time on her. I suppose she was part of this group because actually she has a lot of similarities in behaviour with them...
Generally these groups (the group in Kharkov being an exception) are not properly self-sufficient. In Yogananda's book "Autobiography of a yogi" you can read about a spiritual teacher who is married, has a son, and job and other people who meditated looked down on him for all that. But he was doing it right, whereas they went begging for food, using other people. They were selfish in trying to enlighten themselves and spend all their time on doing what they wanted while using other people!
It is the same just about every time! That is what stood out to me recently, this pattern. Again! Same behaviour, again!
It is very similar with psychologists, I got annoyed recently seeing some videos and comments from psychologists on youtube; The same pattern: All 3 had mental issues that they stated themselves! With psychologists this is the pattern: Whenever I see a psychologist he/she is always incompetent and almost always not mentally stable or autistic or anti-social!
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Last modified: 2024-2-25