[ The cricital pages: index | Cult: Shunyamurti/Robert Shubow | Criticism of 'Shunyamurti'/Robert Shubow: Email interview with former member 'R' ]
I received an email on 2024-6-9 about someone who had been a member of the community of Robert Shubow/Shunyamurti for 10 years but who left and who wrote his/her experiences here: https://www.satyoga.exposed/10yearsexmember.
I emailed via that website and got into contact with this former member, which in the end led to this page. We discussed much more, I may use bit of what I wrote in my emails where relevant. In particular this exchange of emails led me to create a list of life, which is about how to live life, what makes sense, in which I try to explain everything in a way that should be accessible to, and understandeable by anyone, whereas I feel that almost everyone else who provides 'self-help' (in books, videos), meditation, does so without proper explanations. They are essentially 'preaching to the choir': Telling people who already understand most of it, how it works. That is not useful.
My email with questions was sent 2024-10-28. Answers and comments are from 2024-11-17. I wrote on my main page about Shunyamurti on 2024-11-20 that I would upload the interview, or at least part 1 (as part 2 was planned), soon.
However, there were many delays due to finally setting up a long term stay in Kremenchuk and going again to a notary, going back to NL for a few weeks for essential items and much more. On 2025-3-7 I finally got round to HTML'ising it all and I added this introduction and the commentary about the answers (in blue), with small updates on 2025-3-8 and perhaps more to come.
In this HTML file I will call the former member just 'R'.
I wrote:
Shunyamurti = Robert Shubow. His ashram/resort is located in Costa Rica. The purpose of a remote location is based on 2 things that I will go into later which are 1: control, and 2: his beliefs about the world.
R commented about this:
(correct, the land had to be 1000m above sea level so the floods from apocalyptic events would not reach it)
WHS: 2025-3-7: The purpose of a remote location is in particular to isolate followers from outside influences. He wants to be the only influence... This is the same as why long ago Jim Jones moved his cult to Guyana. That it is at a certain height is an additional constraint but I suspect he looked also for a country where it would be relatively easy to go live for a longer time (than say 3 months which is the usual duration you can stay in many countries without some form of residence permit), but I want to ask R about the residence permits next time.
I wrote further:
He started in another cult, Brahma Kumaris, and was active in California, then moved to Costa rica, then to a remote location in Costa rica.
R commented:
California: 2001, Costa rica: 2002, remote location in Costa rica: 2015
You are correct and he barely mentions the BK´s
WHS 2025-3-7: This is perhaps probably a part of his history that he wants to forget in the sense that it took him too long to realise that he couldn't get what he wanted there. In particular he could not rise to the position of the leader there, because in that group women are in the leading position (or positions?) for some reason...
The following was included in my email to R with the initial questions, on how my questions are meant:
Note about my questions: I am more interested in what you really think happened and not in "it must have been (x) because of what I read in (y) which sort of fits" or "what you state makes sense, that must be it".
So, for each question, think back to the situation and time, imagine being there and then but don't let it affect you: What were your views, feelings, desires related to Shubow and the group there, and about what he stated about what he was teaching and about stating what it would do for you.
Now to the questions and answers:
Q1 - Did you know any other groups that were about spirituality, yoga, and if so why did you not go to take part in such another group? Or did you try, but felt dissatisfied in other groups?
Answer: I was never into spirituality or yoga philosophy (just the physical postures, I used to go to many classes and I liked it as exercise), Ecology and sustainable living was the hook that got me. The yoga and spirituality was secondary and something I saw I had to do to be there. I was afraid of climate change and the offer of a "refuge" where I could be safe, was the main hook.
Q2 - How did you get to know Robert Shubow and where was it? In the USA or Costa?
In Costa Rica. A "friend" of mine that is still part of the group. She introduced me to the group, first they hired me as a consultant for ecological toilets, then a couple of years later, I reach out to her again, since I needed a quiet space to rethink my life (I was in the middle of a break-up)
Q3 - What books had you read before entering the commune, about spirituality, and was there 1 in particular that stood out, if so, why?
Answer: I read a lot about ecology and philosophy, not so much about spirituality. My background is agriculture.
Q4 - Had you read at that time the book "Autobiography of a yogi" by Yogananda? If so what were your thoughts on it, and did your views change on this book over time?
Answer: I had seen this book before and read some parts, not the full book. I remember almost nothing about the book, but also wondered why a yogi would write an autobiography...like if he needed propaganda? Certainly my views about any leader or guru has changed over time.
WHS: 2025-3-7: This is a very interesting answer. To me it is not propaganda, but showing something different, just sharing life and showing people something that is for them very unusual, but perhaps the way it is written is meant to try to grab attention precisely because making people think about their lives and about reality is very difficult. In particular arguments in most cases do not work to make people think about anything in their lives, because they do not like to be shown they were wrong. I will think more about this.
Note: Important for this is the feeling of 'cognitive dissonance': It is something everyone feels at some point in their lives. It is a feeling that you get when something happens that you cannot believe is true, it shows something is different than you believe is true. An extreme example is being told by police that a relative is a murderer: "No that is impossible!", that people get in such cases, but usually it is about smaller matters, showing that some of their beliefs about the world are wrong). From such an experience people from then on try to avoid such feelings, which means if they think a discussion or questions or answers go into a direction that they will not like (= they would not like it if it is something that challenges their world view), then they will disregard the rest and stop reading a text/stop watching a video, make dismissive or abusive comments to end a conversation, try to insult other people who make such commments that do go or may go into a direction that they do not want to think about. I have seen this often with people becoming abusive, insulting, in discussions, in comments on forums, on youtube, simply to push away thoughts about that what they think is reality could turn out being not real at all.
Q5 - What was your state of mind at the start? Were you just interested in say meditation and then perhaps getting more interested after hearing a talk or reading some books, or were you looking for a change in your life, looking e.g. for something more meaningful?
Answer: I was craving to serve something bigger than myself, specially in the ecological realm, I was very aware and afraid of climate change and noone took me seriously. I had rejected society and had a hard time incorporating in the systems and was a rebel always, so I was looking to escape it. Robert immediately identified this rebelious attitude and used it for his own interests since day 1.
Q6 - With entering such a commune, what did you hope to achieve? Perhaps wisdom of life, to become happy, or to have a positive impact on the world in some way? Or just an attraction perhaps to the perception of what it would be like getting a feeling of "this is the life for me"?
Answer: I was hoping to find a refuge, escape the capitalists society, live healthy and in peace and in beauty And I also wanted to contribute to nature.
Q7 - What about friends, family, did you discuss anything in depth before entering this commune? What were their views at that point?
Answer: I wish I had. No, I tend to make impulsive decisions and I just informed my relatives (friends, family) of my next move. Some friends warned me about Shubow, sent me info about his former involvements with BK´s.
WHS: 2025-3-7: What were these warnings about, and what did 'R' then do with the warnings about him having been in Brahma Kumaris? I hope that that will be answered in part 2.
Q8 - Was there anything that stood out to you about Shubow at the start, positive and/or negative?
Answer: Indeed, in the firstever meditation I went, at the beginning of any event he always stares at everyone present, for a relatively long period of time, he calls it Darshan or something like that, it does it to each person in the room. The first time, I literally felt he was into my head and literally stopped my train of thoughts. I was impressed by the power and what mostly stood out to me was the followers: a lot of his followers where serious professional people.
WHS: 2025-3-7: I think he does that to assert dominance.
Q9 - Same question about his wife.
Answer: I dont think I can say much about his wife, I disliked her since day one and never took her seriously, she did not inspire any respect to me. The words that come to mind of my first impression of her: Cheap, bad taste, show.
WHS: 2025-3-7: It is said that you can judge people by the books in their book case, but that shows only some aspects of especially interests (and they can be just bought, for show). A much better way to judge what someone is like is by what their friends, or wife/husband are like, though each one only shows part of the person you want to understand, because partners and friends are of course not copies of that person but people who have some shared views and interests.
Q10 - Was there anything that stood out about others at the ashram, if you saw any at the initial meeting, who were working with him in some way, such as who were taking lessons with him?
Answer: Yes, as I mentioned before, the backgrounds of some of the people there impressed me, succesful entrepeneurs, middle age, educated,
Q11 - You mentioned not having money in reserve at some point not that long after entering the commune, but how was it at the start: how and why did you take the leap to go live in a commune, and did you think ahead on how much money you had at the time and how long you could live there (in Costa Rica) without needing to worry? Or did not think ahead and instead felt/thought: "it will work out"?
Answer: I did not think ahead much about money, my skills were very valuable for the Ashram and I assumed they would feed me and take care of me, this, of course was just partially true, as time passed I realized that I needed to find ways to pay for my stuff, so I was given permission to work outside the ashram as a permaculture teacher once a year. the process of getting permision to do this was always painful and lengthy. Every year it would be more and more difficult to do this and it became apparent (by seeing how other members where treated, that got sick) that the ashram would not take care of me if I had any medical emergency, or any emergency of any sort... but the first 5 years I was in denial of this. I was 29 years old when I joined the Ashram.
Q12 - Please watch this short video (32 s) of Rajneesh/Bhagwan: But the people are retarded: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxEM
What do you see, feel, think about him and about what he says?
With what I know now, I can see how is he using hypnosis to make you enter into a trance and it really does not matter or register what he says
WHS: 2025-3-7: Very interesting. I read in some places that he speaks hypnotically but to me he never sounded like that, but more on this later. R mentioned in another email replying to my question about a video with a talk by Alan Watts to which I sent a link, that he sounded hypnotic and that R could not stand to watch further after a very short time. I think that a lot of these people (in self help, meditation, wisdom of life) do act in such a way. Perhaps this is because they are not interested in a dialogue, and so they tell something without engaging. They are essentially talking for themselves rather than as person 1 giving his knowledge to person 2 and then seeing whether it is accepted, understood, as understanding or as feeling, such as what a teacher in a school does. But still to me they don't sound hypnotic but instead annoying because of not properly explaining. I think what to me also stands out more is the essence of people essentially grandstanding, showing you "this is how it works", while doing no effort to properly explain it to people who all have varying backgrounds of education, intelligence, interests, by for example going over questions but also using questions/comments that they must get, to improve their explanations. If they had properly listened to questions/comments, they would have changed their talks and added explanations and examples (I find examples to be essential! Namely to show how it works instead of letting it all be 'theoretical')...
[ This is what I am trying to do differently with my list of life: explain in a way that should be clear to anyone, using logic + examples. I am still working on this list, shared it with various people and I will publish it on my website when I feel that it is good enough. ].
Q13 - In Costa rica, how did you live, vs. Shubow? I mean in living space, comfort etc. Did you notice differences but push away thoughts that 'something is wrong'?
Answer: Of course he would live in a much more comfortable and luxurious space, he and his wife and the elite of the group had access to much more luxurious food and supplements (it was mandatoy to be vegetarian). I would push away the thoughts about that by the justification that he would give us: it is karma, whatever you have in life is your karma...a way of making you stop thinking and questioning. he had many of these cliches.
WHS: 2025-3-7: This view about karma immediately made me think about Rajneesh/Bhagwan/Osho about that reason doesn't apply to his talks (see further for a 2 sentence summary): On wikipedia you can read about him that he "revelled in paradox and contradiction" and that "All such behaviour, however capricious and difficult to accept, was explained as “a technique for transformation” to push people “beyond the mind”", so this means he said that reason doesn't apply to what he says, and that implies that you cannot criticise him/point at inconsistensies in his reasoning (see On Criticism of Rajneesh/Bhagwan/Osho: Final note). I suspect that Rajneesh was mainly interested in protecting his ego, by stating that reason doesn't apply, which means he could say: "you found a flaw in what I said? Well, it doesn't matter, that is not the point of what I say", i.e. he effectively protects himself from criticism.
Note that this doesn't work with me: 1) I found flaws in various of his arguments, 2) I analysed it all and his statement that he tries to force people to go beyond the mind is nonsensical for most people, who simply first need to understand life (and after that going 'beyond the mind may' never be needed nor useful), and 3) that it protects him from beying criticised, which means in total that he provides nothing of value.
The proper way to do it is as I wrote in a comment after the answer to question Q12.
In this case about food/karma: Why should others get less or less good food than he? As others pay for his life style, should he not have to give them the best accomodations and food? Does he not create bad karma this way? Bad actions can always be excused then by stating it is about karma, and does it mean he never helps people in need because "it is karma"? But who is he to decide that that is correct? Further, giving others a bad experience to relieve their karma is not on him to decide, if this concept is real then some 'payback' will likely be done by people who were treated badly in the past (previous lives), I think.
So after reading the above answer from R, I immediately got the feeling of similarity of what Shubow said, with what Rajneesh said:
- Rajneesh: What you don't understand is your own fault, it is not meant to be understood.
- Shubow: What you don't get is your own fault, it is caused by your karma.
In any case, making the world a place good for yourself and not so much for others around you hardly fits with trying to make the world a better place. Christ even said "Turn the other cheek", not "I'm going to not give you as much of these fish as others here, you don't deserve it".
Thank you very much to R. Possibly more to come, in due course...
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Last modified: 2025-3-8