| [ email | About me | Travelling | ... ] |
Prepared 11 Nov-23 Nov 2018.
pictures to compare, not enough of NL and other countries, but I can tell more about this and/or see my travel pages where I will soon add more pictures of Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland.
For more on NL see:Greetings everyone, my name is Wouter, and I come from the Netherlands and in this meeting I want to tell you how I see Ukraine vs. the Netherlands and I will further tell in less detail my views of Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, and the United kingdom. For me the point of this meeting is not to give a lecture but to hear your responses and views about what I tell. For this I will ask questions at specific points, but feel free to ask or make comments at any time.
Marina suggested that I give a talk here in Kharkov, a bit similar to what I have done in Zhitomir in 2017, where I went to a group that practices speaking English. I walked into one of their meetings and I sort of hi-jacked their meeting in the sense that the topic became one that I would like to get some input on, namely: What do people in Ukraine think of their country? A few more topics came up, I asked for example what they wanted to do in future. It was 1 hour which was not enough to discuss all topics I wanted to discuss, so for this meeting I asked for a duration of at least 2 hours (we can have a tea break in the middle).
At the end of this talk I will give you a piece of paper with references to several pages: - My travel pages where I go in more detail and discuss more topics, related to my experiences while travelling. There links to my analysis of a Dutch book on Ukraine and of some people whom I met and analysed. - My bicycle pages and critical pages, showing what I've been working on and what I've been doing in analysing society.
Some of these may be useful to help you discover the truth and not be influenced by other people.
If you have any questions or comments, you can contact me via VK (use VPN!), email, Viber or Telegram.
My interest in Eastern Europe started long ago when I was still in school, I had the impression from some TV programmes (about Russia), that people there were less superficial. I took the start of a course in Russian when I studied physics at university, but didn't do anything with it. End of 2010 I was thinking about what to do with my life, I felt I was wasting my time in NL, I never liked life in NL, and so I should make a change. I already had the feeling that I should emigrate when I was ca. 10-11, and the country I felt then that I should go to was the USA. I don't remember exactly the reasons that I felt I should leave NL, but it must be caused by having a different personality from most people in NL, and so I never felt that I fitted in, I felt more like a stranger. Another issue that I may have subconsciously known is the attitude in NL which is to restrict you. There is a saying about it: "Don't stick out your head above the mowing field, or it will get cut off" (this means: Excellence is not appreciated), whereas in the USA there is a "go for it" attitude. You can see this restrictive attitude not just NL though, in general striving for excellence is not appreciated in most countries.
When I learned German and English in secondary school (12 years and older) I realised that I don't even like the Dutch language. It is confirmed each time when returning from a trip to another country, then when I hear Dutch again, it sounds harsh to me...
Not fitting in has had more consequences for me than not feeling at home, I've also always been single because I didn't like most women in NL.
However, that was and is not just caused by not fitting in. For a very long time in western Europe and the USA there has been a change in attitude in women, which is partly caused by manipulation: They behave too much like men, they are being encouraged, manipulated, indoctrinated, by various sources, including schools and the governments, magazines, etc. to be not dependent on men and that full time work is essential for their lives.
The reasons for this situation are what I call psychopathic structures in society, which are a combination of:
1. rules in society becoming more and more important (i.e. people don't matter, rules matter).
2. not understanding what life is about. People in western Europe and the USA, are generally not philosophical, there is in general not much self-reflection. This is very different in Ukraine (and Russia from what I read it's similar to in Ukraine) and I think this is part of why it's different here even though most women work, it is out of necessity, not out of the view that work is the essence to have meaning in your life.
The result is that in western Europe and the USA people are back to the start of the Soviet union where women and men were equal from the start, and everyone had to work... So curiously instead of going forward, in western Europe and the USA people are going backward... Subconsciously I already felt it in my secondary school years (12-18): girls were not feminine enough, and I found only 1 girl attractive/interesting...
And so people have a mindset that is focussed too much on the importance of work. This spills over into free time, people are always busy with their hobbies and sport, they don't actually relax and take time to think about everything. An example of always being busy, is this: A year ago my sister showed me an invitation which was for a wedding, 6 months ahead. It said only to keep that date open, they didn't know yet where it would be held! They sent it so long ahead of the actual event, because people are always busy but will have time 6 months from now as they don't plan their file ahead that far, of course!).
If I wasn't single, then I may not have decided to emigrate, as then it's a 2 person decision (and if I then had children there would be even more considerations), but also if you are married, then that is what can give enough fulfillment to your life that you can be happy anywhere. But because I was single, I wanted to find a place where I fit in, and I didn't consider western Europe at all.
Some groups are different, such as Jehova's witnesses. It's interesting to talk to such people, as they understand life more, but they too are stuck in some beliefs and customs that I don't think make sense. For example not celebrating birthdays (Which are nice for children, to get presents), or not celebrating Christmas with a christmas tree, because "one shouldn't celebrate Christ's birth" and "has its roots in pagan festivals" which just doesn't make sense, this is not important! It's a cultural thing but also one that can make people think about life. So they should simply enjoy the atmosphere, there is no need to connect any pagan meaning to it...
There are other things going on in western Europe and the USA, esp. influence from cultural invaders, and even if I had ever felt at home in NL, I wouldn't feel at home any more now. You can find more on this topic on my web page about Dutch customs/culture/people.
I came to Ukraine for the first time in August 2012. I loved that it was hot weather because in the Netherlands, it's almost never hot and I like it hot, I like it when it's say 34C which I later experienced, it's no problem for walking, bicycling etc.
I loved the signs in Russian/Ukrainian, it gave me a feel of something exotic, but it goes much deeper than that.
For my first city to visit I went to the east, to Sumy, and not Kiev. I generally don't like big cities because I don't like noise and heavy traffic and crowds of people. On the way to Sumy I saw houses and other buildings with blue and red roofs, and later in 2013 I even saw yellow roof of a restaurant.
I was in Sumy for several days, went to the market, to McDonalds for a milkshake which I like on hot days when I walk a lot, and went to some shops. I bought some soft drinks, such as Creme soda, I think also Targun (XXX Check on pictures) and I like these tastes... Before that time I had already found various music that I like from Ukrainian and Russian groups/singers/musicians, this is interesting and notable because I dislike Dutch popular music. I liked nature, close to the hotel I even saw a squirrel going up a tree, and I thought "Wow, I've never seen a squirrel in real live in the Netherlands!". To me it felt almost as walking in a big park in Sumy also because buildings are usually far apart, lots of green between them. You can find this in many cities, except as I saw in my later tris, in Crimea and I also didn't see it in Cherkassy, which is an odd mix between Crimea and standard Ukrainian type cities, I think it's caused by how the land goes towards the river, people wanting to be close to the river so buildings are built closely together.
After Sumy I went to Kiev. It's a beautiful city in many places, but it is extremely busy and noisy and I don't like that. I felt the same on later trips about Odessa and Lvov... Kharkov is different, it's a beautiful and it is not so noisy.
The feeling I had on my 1st trip is that I felt at home, as if this is my country. I had heard all the stories of what is bad in Ukraine, but it didn't change anything for me.
My later trips confirmed what I felt the first time. I love that it's so long warm/hot weather in Ukraine in summer and autumn, I love some of the food (vareniki with cottage cheese and smetana, blini with cottage cheese and raisins, to give some examples), I love Targun (and home made Targun is even better!) I love the old style monuments, the wide roads, the old Italian styled buildings. I love travelling on the night trains in Ukraine. People are usually interesting to talk to as well.
In 2016 I met Marina, we talked about lots of things, but we couldn't talk as much as I wanted because she worked many days, and long hours. This is a problem in Ukraine of course for everyone, and it is related to the economical problems that have only worsened since the events in 2014.
In 2016 in Kharkov I met a guy who was setting up some business, he said that it would be better to live in Latvia or Lithuania, as there I could find all the things that I like from Ukraine (parks, buildings, nature), but as they are part of the EU I can easily move there.
--- In 2017 I decided to travel more, finish my 'research' on where to live, to be sure that Ukraine is the right choice for me to live (but it still leaves the problem of getting a long term visa...)
First I went to Poland, also to visit a friend. Poland just didn't grab me at all. I went to quite a few cities and I bicycled long distances so I saw many towns and cities and many types of buildings and nature in various places in Poland, but none of it grabbed me. I saw no cool old monuments, no cool old style buildings (instead old buildings are in a German style, they don't appeal to me), nature is not as beautiful, I didn't see any nice parks.
Then to Lithuania and Latvia. Just as in Poland I didn't find there what I like in Ukraine: The weather in summer is not as hot as in Ukraine, no cool old monuments, no cool old style buildings, nature is not as beautiful, etc. the parks are not nearly as nice as in most Ukrainian cities, no cool local music, no stand-out tasty food, the style of buildings is not interesting to me. Also the economical situation is from what I was told barely better than Ukraine...
--- A short time later I made another trip, first again to Poland, I Made some more bicycle trips, but my feeling about Poland did not change.
Then to Hungary, where I visited Budapest and Szentendre, which was a mistake I suppose because Budapest is a big city, and Szentendre is a tourist town. But all experiences were useful. You can read more about it on my travel pages. I like Hungary's nature, but nothing grabbed me. I could go travel to a few more cities to see if I would like it there but I think it's not needed.
After Hungary, I went via Poland to Ukraine. When I went past the border I immediately I felt at home. Nature was different, signs in Ukrainian etc. I went to Lviv briefly then direct to Ivano-Frankivsk. The day after I arrived there was a bread festival, with various types of musical performances, I loved it! :)
On all my trips I got the same feeling in Ukraine, as if I am at home...
In NL I do not like the people, the language, nature, the weather, old style buildings, monuments, music.
And so I never felt at home in NL...
I have a different personality from most Dutchmen
On my first trip to Ukraine, I felt for the first time in my life that I was in places where I felt at home!
I love nature, the weather, old style buildings, monuments, some foods, music, wide roads.
In Ukraine it's interesting to talk to people, they are philosophical, some have a very unsual sense of humour which I like.
In NL besides roads you see single rows of trees, in Ukraine there is half a forest!
In Ukraine you can go swimming in rivers when it's hot. In NL the sides of rivers are usually cut off, made vertical. If you want to get in to swim then it is hard or impossible to get out of the water! Swimming is usually not even allowed because it is dangerous. Ships use many rivers for transportation of materials. You can often see 'binnenvaartschepen', which are ships that transport goods via rivers, with for example a load of sand. There are also pleasure cruisers, boats that some people have to go travel on the water on a nice day.
My clear favourite is Ukraine, which is strange to many people, but I do know the bad points of the country.
It could be that there are more places (nature areas) and structures in society and some traits of people that are good in NL that I don't know about or don't appreciate, but there are essential things in NL that I don't like at all, which are the overal personality of people, nature, music, style of buildings, weather, I like them in Ukraine, I dislike them in NL.
NL is wealthy, Ukraine not but for me that's not important, it's not what life is about.
This was suggested several times by people whom I told that I like it in Ukraine, but the answer is no. I stayed in Ukraine for long periods so I know what life is like, though I don't have financial worries that many Ukrainians have.
Also it's not about being a tourist because I didn't feel at all the same about any other country that I visited for the first time. I didn't get the same feeling in Germany in 2012, nor 2013, and not in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Hungary, last year.
In the United Kingdom (UK) I liked it most of all after Ukraine. I like people there more than in NL, there are many cool old style buildings in London that I saw (not sure how many there are in smaller cities/towns), and it has a far nicer nature than in NL. But the weather is as bad as in NL, I didn't have the 'at home' feeling there, and I see nothing in particular that would attract me to go live there.
For the reverse case, it is unlikely that if someone who likes NL more than Ukraine, who would give me a talk about how he likes NL, same as I do now about Ukraine, would be able to change my mind about NL. I never liked it in NL, I never felt at home in NL, and this is essentially about deeper things, not just economical or political, it comes from a lot of issues together, so a few good points won't make up for those.
We have some similar customs such as St. Nicholas day, and Christmas and other Christian holidays (often with a 14 day shift compared to NL/EU), but on the whole in NL there is almost no own culture any more in NL. The use of English words when there are Dutch words, is a good example of erasing your own identity.
Here are some pictures of traditional Dutch clothes, from Zeeland and a fishing village called "Volendam".
I don't like the Dutch traditional clothes, I much prefer the Ukrainian Vishivankas!
[[ See also Travelling: Talk/discussion, December 2018, Kharkov: Additional: Dutch people and culture ]]
Good in NL:
Bad in NL:
Good in Ukraine:
Bad in Ukraine:
I've not mentioned the bad roads (esp. between cities) as a bad point in Ukraine, as for me this is simply a given, something you just have to accept. Distances in Ukraine are huge compared to NL, the cost of roads in NL is enormous, in NL it is from several million to 20 million euro per kilometer depending on the type of road (high speed roads are built differently and cost more than local 80 km/h roads). Long ago I talked to a woman in Kiev, she said "When you love someone, you love someone's bad points too". In a way that can be applied to a country too, so because I love it in Ukraine and the bad roads are part of it, these are just part of life here, they show me that I am in Ukraine. There are limits of course, I don't love that there is trash in nature, I don't love that there are many homeless cats, I feel sad about this. It's similar to love, some things can be accepted, other things not...
A lot of people underappreciate Ukraine, but this depends a lot on what they think is important in life. The main bad point in Ukraine is clearly the economy: it's hard to make a fair living, which I think makes many people in Ukraine not value the good points of their country.
If you are interested in telling me your views in more detail after say a few days, then just send me a message about what you like and dislike about Ukraine and why. Don't consider it a hassle, but instead an opportunity to get feedback on your views! :)
I will reply to all comments... And because these groups are about improving your English, then I will also analyse what you write regarding the style of use of words, and make suggestions to improve it.
Related to the views of Ukrainians about Ukraine, I have been thinking about writing a book about 'the real Ukraine', which I think could be very interesting, and it could counter the disinformation that you can find in travel guides, documentaries, and in public opinion in other countries. Have a look on my travel pages for more on this topic. If there are enough who agree to incorporate their views, then I could combine all that into a book on this topic. I'm not interested in making money off of that, so if there are sales, I would suggest an even split between all contributors (I would be 1).
Last modified: 2018-11-23